9 Upvotes
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So you know how callout posts aren’t allowed? Is there a way to ban race callout posts? Like how we can’t post things like “why are women on Glow so mean?”, maybe make a rule that we can’t post “why does X race do XYZ?” I’m not sure how to word it as a clear and cut rule, though.
Race Topics: Should we try allowing them again?
HI All,
I know there's been a recent discussion about re-allowing race topics back here in CC, since the current rules mean that issues primarily affecting POC are hidden end up effectively being erased from one of the most active groups in the Community.
That's clearly an issue. So I thought I'd open it up to the Community to discuss the best way to move forward.
A couple of points:
- Help us find solutions! Make suggestions, or just talk about what you'd like to see.
- Please assume that the admins are doing their best. Policy related suggestions are really helpful (like "allow this, but not that")! Since this is about doing what we can with what we've got, "just work harder" or "hire more admins" aren't really going to help us come up with an answer to the question of how to handle these types of posts. I would love to have someone whose mission it was to monitor CC constantly and do nothing else, but that's not in the cards at the moment.
A few other things:
-CC is one of the more active and visible groups in the Community. There are constantly new people coming in, the majority of whom are white and that means likely 101 topics and comments are inevitable. Many of them may be innocent and coming from a place of ignorance not malice, but I know that doesn't make them any less abrasive. (And it certainly gives a degree of cover to the malicious versions.) That's part of the reason we started moving all those discussions- so that POC could have the choice to opt into those conversations if they were willing, but not constantly have those discussions in their face otherwise.
- One of the ways of talking about CC we hit on a while ago is "CC is a place to debate ideas, not people." One of the challenges we face in trying to think of ways to adjust the rules about race topics is finding a way to define that. It's pretty straightforward in the abstract, but a little harder to define in the specific. What kind of topics are OK? What kind aren't? How can we define them in a clear-cut way? This serves two purposes: it helps users know what is and isn't okay, and it helps admins moderate consistently.
- I am open to creative ideas. For example: a post that an admin could enable/disable when they were around to moderate it closely, with discussions taking place in the comments.
- We can try different things and see what works.
ETA: Thanks you guys. You've given us a lot to think about. We'll have an update for you soon.
Vote below to see results!
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COMMENT (139)
Thank you for creating this discussion. I have a few thoughts. •Actual 101 questions should be moved. This includes things like, “is it racist to have braids if I’m white?”, and “can I dress up like Pocahontas for Halloween?” My understanding of this group is that it’s dedicated to education and not debate. •Debates where race is a factor, and particularly ones that require the input and experience of PoC/WoC should remain. To not do so reinforces the idea that talking about race causes racism. Examples of allowable topics could be how gentrification effects communities of color or whether a history of redlining has led to voter suppression. •I understand that there’s a margin of error between those two areas, but listening to user feedback should help clarify. I’d also support another temporary race moratorium as long as it’s short term, if a change in policy leads to an explosion of fuckery. ————-•Other thoughts I have is reremoving CC from auto join, and instead keeping it permanently featured on the nice suggested groups thingie. This would probably also lead to less accidental posting on other topics here as well. In turn add in the 101 group to auto join. •Give less chances to users that repeatedly cause problems. I’m not a technical person, so I don’t know if this is a possibility, but if you could ban people just from this group it might help. •Create a fill in box for report user. The categories are too broad, and I want to let you know exactly why I’m flagging the account and not just the comment. •I know you said saying, “hire more admin etc” isn’t helpful, but have you considered hiring a freelance diversity expert? Someone short term to give input and help update things? It would probably also help with creating a safer space for the LGBT+ community. •Pay me money because I’ve put a shit ton of time into feed back over the years. 💰💸
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It definitely gave me a lot to consider. I’m 100% sure I still fuck up, anything that helps me confront that I value.
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Glad you enjoyed it. I’ve been using it to think about the ways in which my leadership should be challenged. There are moves I make that may, as an unintended consequence, advance white supremacist culture. I’m trying to be proactive in challenging my own leadership practices.
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I just took the time to read White Supremacy Culture as I wasn’t familiar with the piece. Thank you for sharing Finley! I’ll be keeping it in mind as well.
Since I'm the user who has brought this up in posts that have been deleted and/or classified as rants (thanks for that by the way) I will reiterate my opinion that in unilaterally banning any topics that mention race, you are sending a message that you only value topics that center whiteness. My beef isn't with the Race Room, but that fact you have Admins who don't seem to understand what a 101 topic is. Invest in a diversity expert as someone already suggested and give your Admins more professional development. I am tired of whitewashing topics just so they're not moved.
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Exactly what I was going for. At least you get me. 😘
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I read it as more of “look everyone, try to use this as an example of how you should respond when you learn something new about another culture”
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Thank you! 🤗
I think just actually dealing with the problem users who call out racist things should be permabanned. Race topics are great opportunities for great discussions. I think appropriation is a huge subject people need to learn about. Maybe make a single post about appropriation of different cultures. So it would be modeled like the abortion post. However, with the current layout and how posts are shown, it would just disappear the next day. I do think you should ban “what is an unpopular opinion you have” posts though. They bring out the disgusting things.
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Also, I think if you were to do a single post thing, race and cops should be it’s own post too. Especially whenever there are police involved shootings in the news.
My opinion is "yes, but only certain types": a lot of the race topics that people post are of the "is this racist?" variety - which really do belong in the 101 room. But if the topic is an intersection of race and economics, or race and politics, etc, then there's more of a case for it to be in CC. So, for example, "How detrimental is the current industrial-prison-complex to the black community, and do you think this latest bill in congress could negatively or positively affect that?" = good race-related CC topic. Whereas, "People are saying that this costume that Mr. Famous-Person wore is racist/cultural-appropriation! Do you agree?" is a 101 "is this racist?" topic and should be moved.
My worry with this poll is that if the majority of the users are white - and the majority of the users have picked "no, keep it like it is" - is that an adequate reflection of whether race topics should be allowed? Because of course your average white user doesn't feel silenced, and so they'd be in favor of the "peace" of not having heated race-discussions. But, those might be discussions that NEED to be had, and the minority POC users may feel that they want to have their issues discussed. I'm a white woman, so I can't actually know one way or the other - but if I were admin, I'd make sure I was paying special attention to any comments left by POC on this discussion, and not consider the actual poll numbers too heavily.
Ca
Agree
Co
that's a really good point. I have mixed feelings about this. I'm white, but I've also seen how hate and bigotry has hurt minority groups so its hard to say yes to this unless there is proper planning and moderation.
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Right. I didn’t vote & I don’t wanna give input. It’s just not my place
Personally I dont even necessarily see an issue with the topics. The issue is more the discussion or lack there of. Even though this is a debate room, at a point in the conversation people should agree to disagree. In true debates, personal attacks are disqualifying. Thats the issue. So when one person of said color feels a certain way, or expresses a different view with logic and rational thinking, regardless of if another person agrees with it, it should never become a personal attack. It also seems that CC has a certain “click” mentality where people attack, harass in groups. A different group on here posted a pole referencing just that. That is the problem, not the topic, but the bully and strong arm mentality.
Mo
😣 glad I am not the only one. I was a little embarrassed right after I sent that.
Ve
Thank you for your honesty. Im glad you rose above. Ive gotten sucked into the personal attacks and I said things I definitely wouldnt say in a civil conversation. It gets nasty and becomes more self defense than debate.
Mo
The clicks are a problem. I was a little bit sucked into that for a while, and it brought out the worst in me.
Oh god, this is seriously getting old. I have sent multiple feedback over the years and while no doubt you guys get very enthusiastic while hearing it , hardly any in action.Do you care or understand why old users left? If not for my data in glow which precedes most admins here, I would have deleted long back. As a POC and not an ‘American’ this place is such a thriving culture for xenophobia and racism. What annoys me is more often that not the person being subjected to it is the one who has to beg around to admins with emails to take action and most often than not it doesn’t happen.If brutal honesty is what you want, then here try to let your bias (you are human after all) go when dealing with moderation. Would make things much much better . Easy to implement and no TECH team to depend on Good luck
Kh
And I don’t understand why a feedback post gets a downvote FFS
Yes I think race topics should be allowed. Obvious topics that are meant to bait racists should be removed, but just because a topic mentions race shouldn’t mean that it is shunned to the race room which is hardly active at all. Topics in there hardly get any discussion at all. I’ve seen a lot of racist remarks on this app and for that reason I think moderation should be more active. Also, taking into consideration that micro aggressions are still harmful and shouldn’t be left alone. I can’t speak for everyone, but it seems silly that we can’t discuss topics just because race is mentioned even though it only counts for a small part of the discussion. I think less tolerance for racist remarks and more open discussions would be beneficial to cc.
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Maybe in the email you can send the explanation for micro aggressions that is pinned in the 101 room?
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Can “no microaggressions” become a rule?
Ra
We try. It's easier sometimes than others- there are a lot of microaggressions possible that don't actually break the rules. And the first thing people do when they get those warnings is ask in what way was what they said against the rules. That's part of the reason we really need to be able to define things clearly in such a way that makes sense to people who have never heard the word 'intersectionality', if that makes sense.
Until you actually ban the people are racist and hateful...no. That's a horrible idea. You know there is a reason why those topics aren't allowed.
Co
I'm all down for allowing these topics back, but that means there needs to be a plan. There needs to be careful moderation. The safety and wellbeing of POC needs to be taken into consideration.
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